並前往https://podcasts.apple.com/tw/podcast/ep23-%E8%AB%87%E6%96%99%E7%90%86-%E4%BA%94%E8%A1%8C%E4%B9%9D%E5%AE%AE%E8%94%AC%E9%A3%9F%E9%A4%90/id1587317578?i=1000555922844